Empirical analysis of the ionization conditions of early B supergiant winds has also been carried out (based on SEI modeling) and compared to model predictions from the stellar atmosphere code of Hillier & Miller (1998). Intriguingly we find that the values of the empirical q_i's are much lower than expected, with none of the ions approaching unity. We discuss our most recent findings and their implications for clumping and structure in the wind. In particular we argue that these results point for a downward revision in mass loss rates by at least an order of magnitude. There is therefore a clear need to review mass loss rate determinations for massive stars.